Monday, August 06, 2007

Congratulations to the ASBPE winners

I didn't attend the ASBPE banquet last week (although I did attend one day of the convention), so I only learned the names of this year's award winners a few moments ago.

Congratulations to Public CIO and Builder, which won Magazine of the Year honors in their respective circulation categories. I also want to offer a special and heartfelt "well done" to CFO, CIO and PCWorld, which won the Gold, Silver and Bronze medals for multiplatform journalism (PCWorld also won Web Site Publication of the Year.)

And speaking on behalf of the entire blogosphere, I offer my congratulations to Brian's Brain, which won for Best Overall B2B Blog.

You can see all the winners on ASBPE's Web site.

(Disclosure: I was a judge in this year's ASBPE competition.)

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Friday, August 03, 2007

Editor in ads; Ads in editorial

I attended the ASBPE conference here in New York yesterday, where the final session covered ethics in our industry. No one in the room seemed to have any problem in drawing the line between editorial and advertising. And the presence of such clarity about what is right and what is wrong left me feeling encouraged. Even more pleasing was that throughout the day people kept coming up to me, introducing themselves, and thanking me for the work I've done on ethics on this blog. So when I left the hotel last night, I was feeling positively gleeful.

Then I checked my email.

I opened a newsletter from Folio and read an article that reminded me that things aren't always what they should be in magazine publishing, and that many people in our industry do not make us proud.
Folio reported on a scandal in which the editor-in-chief of XXL Magazine appeared in an ad in his magazine.
Take a look here.

Clyde Smith at prohiphop.com first broke the news about the inappropriate ad. And Folio quotes from comments I made that appear on Clyde's site.
But it's not just me, Clyde and the folks at Folio who question the actions of XXL's editor. Marlene Kahan, executive director of ASME, told Folio that "No person on an editorial staff should ever be involved in producing or participating in advertising."

I was pleased to see that ASME was willing to weigh in on this issue. XXL's editor-in-chief was wrong. And ASME had an obligation to say so.
However, I cannot hide my continued disappointment that ASME (and ABM) have failed to weigh in on the IntelliTXT scandal. As of today, we've been waiting three months for word from either group.
In other words, ABM and ASME have failed to do in three months what ASBPE managed to do in a day -- issue a statement saying that IntelliTXT ads violate our industry's ethics rules.

(Addendum: Regular readers of this blog, and most anyone who has heard me speak in recent months, know that I generally sing the praises of XXL -- or at least of its Web site. It was back in November that I first became aware of the work of Jason Brightman on xxlmag.com. You can read here how impressed I was. Jason recently left XXL to join IDG, a client of mine. )

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Wednesday, August 01, 2007

Can I have a hug?

Late last year I ended a brief experiment in running a blog called Wind Farm News, which covered the wind-power industry. The site is long gone, but bits of it have been preserved by the Way-Back Machine.

I found myself thinking about that site today when I read that Treehugger had been sold for somewhere between $10 million and $15 million.

Within days of launching Wind Farm News, I found myself obsessed with Hugg.com, the Digg-style "source for user-generated green news" owned by TreeHugger. On Hugg, users share stories they like with the Hugg community. And then other users can vote their approval by "hugging" that story. The most-hugged stories move to the top of the home page.

On those rare days when one of my pieces was posted to Hugg, I felt tremendous satisfaction. And when other users "hugged" my story, it was a remarkably affirming experience. Never before in my journalistic career had I got such a kick out of reader feedback. It felt light years away from the letters to the editor of my newspaper days. And getting hugged felt even better than the links and comments that mark feedback here on this blog. A "Hugg" felt like a "hug."
And I really liked getting them. More importantly, I really liked giving them to stories I enjoyed.

The sale of TreeHugger comes just two weeks after MediaBistro was sold for $23 million. And I suspect that much of the media world -- even the new-media world -- will be perplexed by the value attached to TreeHugger in the same way they were perplexed by the price of MediaBistro.
But I don't share the cynics' disbelief.
I think that TreeHugger and MediaBistro were both worthwhile investments and for the same reason -- community.

When I published Wind Farm News, I felt that I belonged to Hugg. And I engaged with content on that site in a way that I had never engaged before or since -- by sharing my affection for an article by "hugging" it. Hugg was my community in a way that LinkedIn never has been but that Facebook may be becoming -- the place where I am online.
I had similar experiences with MediaBistro, although not as intense. I've taken a course at its New York office. I've turned down an opportunity to teach there. I use the site on a regular basis to look for freelancers. In other words, MediaBistro is one of the places that I "network."

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that I value such communities in a way that I cannot value the staples of the B2B world -- print products and trade shows.
Print is something that I read. A trade show is someplace I go. But a community is a place where I belong.
And I suspect that in 2007 when media bankers and the like try to determine the value of a B2B company, they will decide -- correctly -- to give higher multiples to companies that offer a place to be, rather than just a magazine to read or a conference to attend.

Rex also thinks the MediaBistro sale is a "big deal" for B2B.

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Tuesday, July 31, 2007

ASBPE comes to New York

Take a look around your newsroom. If the place looks empty today, that's a good thing. Because it may mean your editorial staff is heading to New York City for the National Editorial Conference of the American Society of Business Publication Editors.

The conference runs on both Thursday and Friday of this week. Unfortunately, I won't be able to make both days. But I'll be at the conference on Thursday. If you see me walking around (I'll be the stunningly attractive man with short, gray hair), say hello. I'm not sure yet if I'll be able to stick around for the Azbee Awards Reception and Dinner (Full disclosure: I was a judge in this year's competition.) But save a seat for me just in case.

If you can't make ASBPE, you'll still have one more chance to try to convince your boss to pay for a trip to New York this year. The Folio Show runs from Sept. 23 to 26. I'll be there too. And I'll be joining Kevin Ireton of Fine Homebuilding magazine to lead a session on "Who Should You Hire: Journalists, Market Pros or E-Wizards?"

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Thursday, July 19, 2007

Lessons from the new metrics

My recent post on the new metrics from Nielsen prompted a few emails from readers. Folks asked what, if any, changes in content might be prompted by the new measurements. And one reader in particular asked if I thought "trades should continue to invest time and resources to delivering email newsletters?"

I'm not a fan of email newsletters. As I've mentioned before, I think RSS is a superior product for users. So I think it's inevitable that as consumers become more familiar with news readers and related products, newsletters will come to be seen as too annoying to deal with.
It's also worth noting that e-mail newsletters are, as strange as it may seem, already quite old-fashioned. Young people don't like e-mail. And as just as print has begun to seem quaint even to folks in their 30s and 40s, e-mail looks like semaphore signals to the Facebook generation.

Yet as much as I have grown to dislike email newsletters, I think it's way too early for publishers to walk away from them. There's still money to be made there. In some cases there is a lot of money to made there. Advertisers like them. They are a fairly easy and inexpensive way to launch a new product. And most importantly, they are tied to a metric -- a list of email subscribers -- that won't be hurt by Nielsen's change.
So I advise publishers to:
a) begin offering RSS now, and
b) make improvements to your existing email newsletters, which are often the least professional product in any B2B line-up.
For more on this subject, take a look at this post from early last year.

There is, however, one more thing worth thinking about here.
Nielsen's new measurements -- which emphasize time, rather than page views -- decrease the value of products that don't have original content. In other words, a page (or e-mail newsletter) of outside links is worth less than a page of compelling and time-consuming content. In this model, a five-minute video clip is worth more than five clickable headlines to someone else's content. Content aggregation, which has been the easiest way for publishers to make money online, may not be so easy anymore.

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Monday, July 16, 2007

Friday, July 13, 2007

Video interview with yours truly

I'm one of those vain people. There's nothing I like the more than sound of my own voice.

So when I checked out the video interview of me from the College Media Advisers convention, I put my headphones on and cranked up the volume. You may want to do the same. Because as Bryan at CMA says in his post, the "audio is kind of low, and Paul has a soft speaking voice."

If you want to hear more about what I think journalism students should be thinking about, I'll be speaking at the National College Media Convention in Washington, D.C., in October. I'll also be speaking at the Southeast Journalism Conference in February. I'll post more information about that meeting when it's available.
And I promise to speak loudly at both shows!

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Wednesday, July 11, 2007

Would you rather lose your job or your integrity?

As the argument over editorial integrity, the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch captures the attention of much of the journalism world, it pleases me to no end to see that one of the most sensible voices in the debate comes from the world of B2B.

Take a look at this essay by Jim Prevor, published in the Journal earlier this week. Jim argues that great journalism is born of courage, not work rules. And that journalists' independence "comes always and simply from their willingness to be fired. "

Jim runs Florida-based Phoenix Media Network, which covers the perishable foods industry. For more from Jim, take a look at his blog, PerishablePundit.

If you want to learn how to be a courageous editor, make sure you attend the Folio Show in September. The first session is called "What Makes a Courageous Magazine Editor?" (Note: I'm also speaking at this year's Folio show. I'll be joining Kevin Ireton of Fine Homebuilding magazine to discuss "Who Should You Hire: Journalists, Market Pros or E-Wizards?")

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Tuesday, July 10, 2007

A new way to measure up

Way back in the day, when the Web was young, and I was less old, we lived for page views.
Everything seemed to revolve around them -- budgets, compensation, the number of pats on the back per employee from upper management, etc.
So we built products that revolved around that metric ... even when building products aimed at page views often meant that we built products that didn't serve readers.
For example, it was fairly common a few years ago to "force" readers to click through a story. Every article was divided into multiple pages. So someone who wanted to read a 500-word story might have to load five pages to get to the end.

In time, we got smarter. In time, we learned again to put readers first. And, in time, we got enough good data about how people actually used the Web that we could build products that met users' needs and reflected their surfing habits.

Now, years after smart Web journalists have abandoned the page view model, the advertising world has caught up. Nielsen has announced it is replacing the page view metric with a new measurement of how long someone stays on a site.

Nielsen and the advertising community are concerned that video -- which has changed how people consume online content -- isn't appropriately measured by page views. And they are right. Watching a video for 5 minutes does merit something more significant than a single page view. We simply can't equate that action -- and its time commitment -- with spending two seconds on a page of links and then clicking out.
But there is a problem here , too.
Because clicking to exit has become the goal of much of online marketing. The page view metric was replaced a long time ago by the cost-per-click metrics of Google.
(For more on this subject, check out Scott Karp's post.)

There's another problem too. If, as I've been arguing for awhile now, content is becoming containerless, then the time spent on any single site has grown less valuable, not more valuable. If I read your content through an RSS feed or use your data in a widget application without visiting your site, how will my time with your content be measured?

But despite how Google, RSS, widgets and the rest are changing the game, B2B journalists and publishers should be thrilled with Nielsen's decision. Here's why:
Nielsen is making an attempt to measure the things that we in B2B claim we do best -- engagement and community. Sure, this new metric isn't perfect. Time on a site isn't an exact measurement of how engaged a reader is by content, nor is it an exact measurement of how connected a reader feels to his industry and the B2B publications that cover it.
But it's close.
And it's a start.
And it's sure better than page views.

As is often the case with media news, I first heard about Nielsen's decision by reading Danny Sanchez' Journalistopia blog. Check out his post, where he talks about how the new metric will change the way journalists work.

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Friday, July 06, 2007

Congratulations to the TABPI winners

The global B2B association known as Trade, Association and Business Publications International has announced the winners of its 2007 TABPI awards (Full Disclosure: I was a judge in this year's competition.)

Among the notable winners are the U.K.'s Legal Business, which picked up best single issue for the third year in a row.
InfoWorld and Computerworld, both published by IDG, a client of mine, won the Gold and Silver awards for best Web site.
And 14 magazines picked up four or more awards -- The ACC Docket, Best's Review, TechTarget's CIO Decisions and Information Security, Computerworld, Fresh Cup, Inbound Logistics, InfoWorld, Modern Healthcare, NZ Retail, Physicians Practice, REALTOR Magazine and RT Image.

Congratulations to all the winners!

For a complete list of winners in 11 editorial categories, click here.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2007

Congratulations to Jan White

I'm in the process of moving. My little family has gotten too big for our little apartment. So we got a bigger place in Manhattan.
We won't make the final move until autumn. But bit by bit, piece by piece, things are going into boxes.
As luck would have it, I moved one of those boxes to my office in the city last week. It was filled with books that are related to my work. And when I unpacked, I placed one of those books at the top of the pile -- a sort of reminder to reread it when I get the chance.

That book is "Editing by Design," the masterpiece by Jan White about visual journalism.

Yesterday I read that ASBPE had announced that Jan White is the latest recipient of its lifetime achievement award.
And I cannot think of a more deserving winner.

Take a look at what ASBPE says about the 79-year-old visionary.
Then buy his book.

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Friday, June 29, 2007

Widget windfall

It was almost exactly one month ago when I posted something to this blog about Facebook's decision to open its API to any developer who wanted to build a widget for the site. I said then that Facebook's decision "is going to prompt a shift in the world of online content -- similar to the shifts that came with the rise of content aggregation and search. Once again the way that early adopters find, consume and share content is going to change. More importantly, an entire new class of entrepreneurs will emerge to build content companies on top of Facebook's API."

Now Google has thrown its support behind the widget phenomenon. Google has created a venture fund that will offer financial support to developers who build widgets for Google's Gadget API. (Thanks to Matthew for pointing me to the news.)

So if it wasn't clear before, it should be clear now -- something significant is happening.
And if I haven't been clear before, let me say it again -- B2B journalism isn't ready.

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Thursday, June 28, 2007

Taking a second look at ...

It's been a long time since I wrote about Second Life. Heck, it's been an even longer time since I visited Second Life.
But a reader of this blog sent me a link to a video that:
a) had me laughing out loud like a crazy man, and
b) had me missing the virtual world something terrible.
If you've been to Second Life, then you too will get a kick out of the video.
If you've never been there, I don't think the video will make much sense to you.
Take a look.

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Monday, June 25, 2007

Selling your reputation

I don't accept ads on this blog. There are lots of reasons for that, but the core one is this: I don't want readers to worry about bias. When I say that I like a particular magazine or Web site, I don't want anyone to think that I was paid to say so.
I view this blog as a service, not as a business. I write about things that interest me in the world of B2B journalism. And I try to offer insights, guidance and suggestions to my peers in this profession.

But it would be misleading for me to describe myself solely as a journalist. I'm also an entrepreneur. I run a consulting business. And this blog is most certainly a promotional tool for that business. In the world of B2B, I'm best known as Paul Conley, the blogger, not as Paul Conley who used to be Midwest Bureau Chief at the Journal of Commerce, or as that Conley guy, who used to be a v.p. at Primedia Business.

Nonetheless, on this blog I strive to keep a church/state wall between my business interests and my journalism passions. That's why posts on this blog often contain disclosures about my business relationships with companies such as IDG, Primedia/Prism/Penton, N.Y. Times Digital/About, SmartBrief, Cygnus, etc.

But every once in awhile, someone offers me a chance to "monetize" my blog through ads or pay-per-post or some other such scheme. And I've never had a hard time saying "no."

But in recent weeks, some of the bigger names in the blogging world have apparently succumbed to temptation. They took money to write positive things about an advertiser. And they failed to disclose the relationship.

Much of the blogging world is abuzz over the controversy. And as is often true when controversy moves through the blogosphere, Rex Hammock is the guy I'm most likely to agree with.
But I will add just one small point to the arguments over what is, and is not, permitted online.
As I said earlier, I am both an entrepreneur and a journalist. And it is in my role as a journalist that I can find all the guidance I need as I navigate the ethics debates.

Here's what ASBPE's ethics guidelines say about writing about advertisers: "Favorable editorial coverage or preferential treatment in an article must never hinge on the prospect of ad sales, financial gain, or other factors that are not related to editorial integrity." Here's what ABM says on the subject: "Advertisers and potential advertisers must never receive favorable editorial treatment because of their economic value to the publication."

For me -- and for all of us in B2B journalism -- the rules are clear. Whether we work in print, or online or both, we must behave as journalists. Or, as I have said more times than I can remember, the rules haven't changed online, and you shouldn't let them.

(Note: Longtime readers of this blog may remember the first time someone offered to pay me for my work here. Take a look at how I responded.)

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Thursday, June 21, 2007

The best and the bankrupt

Allow me to offer my congratulations to the finalists in ASBPE's Magazine of the Year and Website of the Year competitions.
ASBPE announced the final cut earlier this week. There are 20 magazines (in two circulation categories) left in the running. While 10 Web sites still have a shot at the grand prize.
The full list of finalists is available on ASBPE's Web site.

It's worth noting that one of the Web finalists is eWeek, the same publication that outraged me when I found it was a finalist earlier this year in ABM's Neal Award. ABM later showed the good sense not to give the award to someone who violated the ethics rules of our profession.
eWeek also later came to its senses .
But I would still hate to see a publication that demonstrated such disregard for our standards be named the best B2B publication on the Web. So I'm hoping that ASBPE opts to snub eWeek as well.

Note: in the Jan. 29, 2007, post in which I first complained about eWeek's unethical practices, I also made note of the parent company's dismal financial situation and predicted that "regardless of how things turn out, it’s unlikely that Ziff Davis’ owners, private equity firm Willis Stein & Partners, will get back anything close to the $780 million they paid for the company in 1999."
Well today Ziff Davis announced it was selling its Enterprise Group, which includes eWeek, for $150 million. The company remains riddled with debt. So it now seems likely that bankruptcy court will be the next stop for Ziff Davis.

Click here to read min's coverage of the sale.
Click here to read Folio's coverage of the sale.

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Thursday, June 14, 2007

Cygnus becomes a sinner

Whenever I think that B2B media has turned a corner and committed itself to the highest standards of journalism, something happens to remind me of why so many people look down their noses at trade publishers.
A reader of this blog sent an email to tell me that Cygnus, a former client of mine, has begun inserting ads in the editorial -- the exact same offensive practice that Ziff Davis and CMP recently abandoned.

If you want to see the ads, take a look at this article or this one.
If you have any doubts that this practice violates the ethics guidelines of our industry, please take a look at this earlier post in which I praise ASBPE for issuing a clear and definitive statement saying that such ads are inappropriate.

And if you have any doubts about where the bending of editorial rules can lead -- if you have any curiosity about what the bottom of the B2B ethics barrel looks like, then check out the Nuclear Power Journal, where news releases are run for a fee. Click on the media kit and read about "editorial participation."

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Wednesday, June 13, 2007

CMP goes Web first; closes three magazines

There's some tough news today in the world of B2B journalism. CMP is restructuring and laying off some 200 people. The move is predictable, and even wise. But it's still sad to think that so many of our comrades are out of work.

The move is prompted by CMP's realization that last year its non-print revenue surpassed its print revenue for the first time, Chief Executive Officer Steve Weitzner told Folio. And according to Weitzner, "that trend is continuing and the gap is actually growing. We want to realign internal resources around these growth areas and look at opportunities in the marketplace and really go after them."
Or, in other words, CMP is putting its online business at the fore.
According to BtoB Magazine, CMP is closing three print magazines and reducing the frequency of two others.

CMP's restructuring comes less than three months after IDG's InfoWorld announced that it was going Web-only. I said then that "no matter how we look at the changes in media, it's clear that part of what is happening must be described as loss ... but something is gained, too ... a trail to follow, and vindication for the trailblazers."

I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy. So today, despite the losses at CMP, I also feel better about our industry as a whole.
Bit by bit, day by day, we are getting to where we need to be.

For more info, check out min's blog.

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Monday, June 04, 2007

More on widgets

My recent post about widgets, Facebook, the future and B2B journalism generated a few emails. And two readers pointed out that there are now at least two widgets in our industry.

First, if you're attending the Circulation Management show in New York this week, you can check out the debut of a widget from NXTBook. I'm afraid I don't have any details yet. But I'm eager to see it.

Second, Penton has a widget of its SearchFinace tool, built with Yahoo's widget technology. Take a look at the lower left-hand corner of SearchFinance.com for info on how to download it.

For more on widgets, take a look at the Sexy Widget blog. (It's worth noting that Sexy Widget's Lawrence Coburn is considerably less pleased by Facebook's recent move than I am.)

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Saturday, June 02, 2007

A win for the ethical folks

Folio magazine has an article in its June edition about my recent battle with Ziff Davis over that company's unethical use of IntelliTXT ads inside editorial copy. And if Folio is correct, then this fight is over. Michael Vizard, editorial director and senior vice president for Ziff Davis’s Enterprise Group, tells Folio that Ziff Davis has removed the ads.

And as I take a look through Ziff Davis' sites tonight, I can find no evidence of the offensive ads. And I'm just thrilled.

If you're not familiar with this issue, you should be. These ads have become a plague in our industry. So please read the Folio article. Or take a look at my post that stared this fight.

Also, I'd like to once again thank ASBPE for taking a forceful stance on this issue. The support of that organization has been crucial.
At the same time I feel obliged to voice my great disappointment in American Business Media and the American Society of Magazine Editors. It was exactly a month ago tomorrow that I asked the three major trade associations to clarify their ethics policies in regard to IntelliTXT ads. And while ASBPE responded rapidly, both ABM and ASME have remained silent.
That is shameful.

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Saturday, May 26, 2007

The next big thing isn't here, but it may be very, very close

I've had no luck getting journalists and B2B publishers interested in creating widgets.
I've tried. But I've failed.
I can think of at least a half dozen conversations and emails on the subject in the past few months. But no one I've talked to has reacted with anything even close to enthusiasm. It's my fault, I'm sure. I didn't create a sense of urgency about widgets ... because although I've viewed them as exceedingly cool things, I haven't thought of them as crucial to a B2B publication.
But that may have just changed.
In a related vein, in the past few years dozens of journalists and publishing executives have asked me what I think will be the next big thing in publishing. And although I've used that question to launch conversations on dozens of topics, I haven't given a definitive answer ... because I didn't think I knew the answer.
But that too may have just changed.

If you've heard the news about Facebook, you may know what I'm about to say. If you haven't heard the news, let me explain. Facebook, the social-networking site that dominates the online lives of millions of college and high-school students, has said it will allow outside companies to embed applications and widgets in its pages. Facebook is opening its API to the world. What that means is that anyone is now free to build entire online businesses -- including content businesses -- on top of Facebook.
Scott Karp says the move gives Facebook the opportunity to become the next Google.

The first widgets are coming from predictable sources such as Amazon and Digg. But the possibilities are endless.
Certainly some of the smartest folks in the media business have jumped on the Facebook train. Take a look at this post by Rob Curley of the Washington Post, which "secretly" developed three applications for Facebook (Note: Rob emphasizes that Facebook is doing more than accepting widgets, but is instead looking for applications that are "real social-networking tools." And he even makes a point of saying that a simple widget of headline feeds would be about the dumbest thing anyone could try to get the Facebook community excited about.)

So am I saying that Facebook is the next big thing? For B2B? Not really.
Look -- Facebook has clearly become the most exciting company in the online world. And unlike a year ago when I first tried to sign up for a Facebook account, now even gray-haired B2B types like me are free to join. But I don't see Facebook becoming a major factor in the working lives of people in their 30s and older.
Am I saying that widgets are the next big thing? in B2B? Not really, although it's clear that many of the most exciting online products we'll see in the next few months will be widgets built for Facebook.

What I'm saying is that Facebook's decision to open its API is going to prompt a shift in the world of online content -- similar to the shifts that came with the rise of content aggregation and search. Once again the way that early adopters find, consume and share content is going to change. More importantly, an entire new class of entrepreneurs will emerge to build content companies on top of Facebook's API.
What I'm saying is that the next big thing in B2B publishing will exist because of what Facebook is doing. What I'm saying is that after new entrepreneurs figure out how to make money from content on Facebook, they'll figure out how to make money in B2B using a similar, widget-like process of embedding applications on top of someone else's business.
And the place that I think that's most likely to happen is Salesforce.com.

If you're not familiar with Salesforce, take a walk over to the desk of the guy who sells your ads. Odds are he knows it. Odds are he uses it. Ask him to explain it to you. Or just take a look here for an explanation of how Salesforce's customers can pick and choose from applications.
What you'll find is that Salesforce already is what Facebook is trying to become -- a technology platform that allows users to build a place to be on the Web. And while Facebook is about life, Salesforce is about work. Just like B2B publishing.

So consider this: Earlier this year Salesforce launched a service aimed at financial-service professionals. Merrill Lynch has already signed up 25,000 of its employees. Those employees are now using market-data streams and other applications in the Salesforce environment. But what they are not using is content, data or anything else from a traditional B2B publisher. Because as near as I can tell, none of the dozens of financial-service magazines in B2B have thought of a single application to offer them.

When I look at Facebook and Salesforce and open APIs, I'm convinced that I see the outline of the next big thing. I'm not sure exactly what form this next big thing will take. I'm not sure exactly how it will work. But I know that it is being born.
And as I have warned before, the world of B2B publishing isn't ready for it.

Click here to read how the development community views Facebook and Salesforce.

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